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Re: Wing calculations 11 Dec 2013 01:48 #659

Phil, AFAIK, I used the station (STA) of each rib and adjusted the calculations accordingly (calculations are relative to each of the ribs), so I think they are correct, but I'll give another look. Once you get to the fuselage attach, the moment starts to drop i.e. max moment at /sta 8.5 inches, not STA 0

The load that comes from the flaps has to go through the ribs all the way to the spar -- I'll start to look at that next.
Cheers, Kenny

--- On Tue, 10/4/11, Philip Lardner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:

> From: Philip Lardner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> Subject: RE: [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots] Re: Wing calculations,
> To: "'Kenny Andersen'" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 9:51 AM Thanks for that Kenny -
>
> Just going over your numbers, trying to figure out why your rib chords
> were so different to mine and I think I've discovered the problem. If
> 'Wing STA'
> is the distance from the centreline of the glider to each rib, and
> each rib is 21.375" apart then the root rib is at 8.5" from the
> centreline... the next at 29.875 (not 21.375), the next at 51.25 (not
> 42.75,
> etc...) Basically
> you need to add 8.5" to each rib station to get the correct distance
> from the glider's centreline. That done, your spreadsheet (rib chords,
> centroids and moments) then agrees with mine...
>
> ...until I get to the the Cap Loads. For some reason (in my
> spreadsheet) I
> was dividing the height of the spar by two instead of using the
> average distance between the caps. Dumb!
>
> The next error in my own spreadsheet was in calculating the individual
> element loads along the wing. By some aberation I used the Payload
> weight (the all-up weight less the wings) instead of the correct
> element load I had already calculated. Stupidity.
>
> Correcting my spreadsheet brings our figures back in line again
> (taking into account our slightly different choice of wing loadings.)
>
> So, two heads really are better than one - thanks for making me
> re-check everything and *think*!
>
> Although I made a couple of fundamental errors in my original
> spreadsheet, I'm glad to see that they were on the conservative
> side...
> waay on the
> conservative side! I'm still amazed that even at +10.5g the wing only
> needs
> 4 rods at the root!
>
> As you can see, I have calculated the separate rod requirements for
> the upper and lower caps. Is there any good reason not do this (i.e.
> to keep the number of rods equal for both top and bottom caps)? This
> shouldn't be a problem if (as I had planned) you lay the carbon rods
> with their widest face
> (0.220") flat against the shear web - then your P_cap=M/h is
> unaffected by the changing number of rods along the wing. BTW - I'm
> using a cap depth (top to bottom) of .220" + (2 x .011") = 0.242" as
> the carbon rod caps will be fully enclosed/wrapped in a single layer
> of 248 twill cloth, which is 0.011"
> per laminate.
>
> Moving on to the second page of my spreadsheet - the Rib Stress
> Analysis - I have run the numbers using the chord of the wing LESS the
> chord of the flaperon. I don't know if this is the correct thing to do
> or not. I realise that the load generated by the flaperon surface is
> transmitted to the main wing through the hinge points but I don't know
> how to model that. I would also like to calculate the loads and
> stresses along the flaperon surface so I can get an idea of what
> materials to use in building them.
>
> All the best,
>
> Phil.
>
>
Original Message
> From: Kenny Andersen [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
>
> Sent: 03 October 2011 16:06
> To: Philip Lardner
> Subject: RE: [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots] Re: Wing calculations
>
> rect is rectangle, tri is triangle.  What I do is calculate the area
> of the rectangle between any two of the ribs and then the area of the
> (2) triangles (treating is as a single triangle), then I calculate the
> centroid individually, and the the centroid of them combined.
> The shear is then the
> total area times the wing loading and the moment is the total shear
> times the distance to the combined centroid from where the section cut
> is made.
> Once you have the moment, you just divide by the spar cap height
> (center of cap to center of cap dist) to get the cap load.  Of course,
> once you get that you divide by the load/rod to get the number of
> rods.  Marske did his at 8 Gs, but I think I've seen some 6g gust
> loads and since people in sailplanes are actually looking for strong
> thermals, and the rods don't add that much mass, then I don't see any
> reason to not go the 6g/9g route.
>
> Again, if you make the spar symmetric, just size the flange with the
> compression allowable for the ultimate load, and use that for the
> lower (tension dominate) spar so they are both the same.
> Kenny
>
>
> --- On Mon, 10/3/11, Philip Lardner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> wrote:
>
> From: Philip Lardner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> Subject: RE: [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots] Re: Wing calculations
> To: "'Kenny Andersen'" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 8:53 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I presume Marske's rod numbers are at 8g, but - wow!
>  
> I'm still working my way through your spreadsheet (thanks for that by
> the
> way) and comparing it to my numbers (and trying to figure out your
> column
> headings!) but at +8g I was getting 5 rods on the top cap and 3 rods
> on the lower cap at -4g, totalling 104.25ft of rod for both wings (see
> attached.) I'll get a bit more time to work on it tonight.
> The different
> numbers we're getting for our cap loads (you: 9826lbs -
> me:19226) is
> significant!
>  
> Phil.
>
>
>
> From: Kenny Andersen
> [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
>
> Sent: 03 October 2011
> 14:16
> To: Philip Lardner
> Subject: RE:
> [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots] Re: Wing calculations
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
>    
>       Just ran across this
>       statement about the Monarch, Marske's sail plane with almost
>       the same span I was looking at the
>       the number of rods tracks pretty close to the solution I got
> 9see below).
>        The next step is looking at and sizing the spar webs.  I was
>       looking for a hand method to do the webs, but it doesn't look so
> good
>       (easy).  However, I do have tools at work that I can use (FEM
> stuff).
>        Maybe Timeshanko has something, but they are always really
> complex
>       (IMO).
>      
> The new Monarch G, a 42.6 ft span sailplane, uses
>       only four rods (.092 x .220) in each spar cap. Enough rod for
> one wing
>
>       panel (upper and lower caps) requires
> 112 ft. That amounts to 1.44 lbs
> of
>       rod per wing spar. The total weight of the completed wing spar
> is 7 lbs
>       which includes blocking for root and strut fittings.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/2/11, Philip Lardner
>       <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> wrote:
>
>      
> From:
>         Philip Lardner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
> Subject: RE:
>         [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots]
> Re: Wing calculations
> To:
>         This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> Date: Sunday, October 2, 2011, 5:59
>         PM
>
>
>        
>         Hi Kenny,
>          
>         I'm sending you the attached
> pages
>         of Marske's manual (off-list,
> as it is copyright material) so you
> can
>         see how I am arriving at the
> figures in my spreadsheet and other
> pages
>         of notes.
>          
>         I'll leave off asking any
> questions
>         until I've had a chance to see your spreadsheet and the
> numbers you're
>         using... but I've already got a few!
>          
>         Glad you're on the
>         mend!
>          
>            
>         Phil.
>
>        
>        
>         From:
>         This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
>
>         [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
> On Behalf Of
>         Kenny
> Sent: 02 October 2011 13:14
> To:
>         This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> Subject:
>         [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots]
> Re: Wing
>         calculations
>
>
>          
>        
>        
>        
>         OK, I FINALLY got a chance to
> go over the calculations (the
>         bronchitis is down to a dull
> roar) . I don't have Marske's book, so it
>         was hurting my brain trying to figure out how he did
> everything, so then
>         I thought, I'd just do it the
> 'real' way (LOL). so I just made my
> own
>         spreadsheet and ran the numbers for the wing I was thinking of
> it.
>         Calculate the area, the wing
> loading and then the moments and cap
>         (flange) loads. Our solution
> tracked OK until you go to calculate
> the
>         load in the flange. The load in the flange is just the moment
> divided by
>         the height.
>
> At the root for 8gs you got a moment of 112,951 in-Lb
>         (I got 109,000). The height of the outer contour is 11.75 at
> the root,
>         but I used 11.5 to account for any offset
>
> The cap load is then:
>         113000/11.5 = 9826 Lb
> you got 19226 Lb
>
> One thing I did to
>         make sure I didn't get confused is I kept all the units in
> inches. I
>
>         upload my spreadsheet once I
> get my wing straightened out. I put the
>
>         standard wing on page 1 and
> I'll put my wing on page 2. I'm
>         using:
>
> pilot weight 220
> parachute 25
> air frame weight
>         155
> wing weight -75
>
> I'm using 6g limit, 9 g ultimate (that's
>         the same as an F-16! -- I think it will be enough!)
>
> A word about
>         sizing the wing. There is a
> couple of things that we can do to
> simplify
>         the analysis and that is a
> decision to keep the upper and lower wing
>
>         spar sizing symmetric. It won't cost much weight due to using
> the carbon
>         spar caps. We do that and the
> centroid is in the middle and we can
> use
>         P_cap = M/h to calculate the
> load in the cap (easy-peeze).
>
> So you
>         size just one spar for ultimate load, and that's good enough.
> because
>         carbon fails catastrophically, there is no need to be
> concerned about
>         limit load. Limit load is only used to check for yield. For
> virtually
>         all aerospace-grade aluminum
> (other than 6061) , and graphite limit
>         checks are not necessary.
>
> Also, I'm going to be a bit more
>         sporting than my buddy and use 150,000 psi for compression in
> the carbon
>         rod [rather than 100,000] and
> just make damn sure I pack everything
>         right into the corner. Between using the lower allowable and
> making the
>         wing cap sizing symmetric, it
> should be plenty conservative. Check
> your
>         spreadsheet for that cap load.
> Kenny
>
> --- In This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.,
>
>         "Philip Lardner"
> <philiplardner@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok,
>         I've updated the Excel
> spreadsheet in my files directory with a
>         new
> > sheet detailing the Rib Stress Analysis for each of
> the ribs
>         in the main
> > wing.
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > _____
>        
> >
> > From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> >
>         [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
>
>         On Behalf Of Philip
> > Lardner
> > Sent: 28 September 2011
>         16:25
> > To: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> >
>         Subject: RE:
> [Carbondragonbuildersandpilots] Re: Wing
>         calculations
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
>         Folks,
> >
> > I've uploaded another few pages of calculations
>         (Page-20 to Page-23 in the
> > 'Phil Lardner' files directory)
>         covering the rib layout and
> stress analysis.
> > I've used the root
>         rib as a worked example and
> will upload the numbers for
> > the
>         other ribs when I get them
> finished.
> >
> > I discovered a
>         few more numerical typos in Jim Marske's text - confirmed by
> >
>         him. The text could also be a
> little clearer when describing how the
>
>         rib
> > panel centroids are arrived at. I mistakenly used the
>
>         formula on pg D-1 of
> > Marske's manual to calculate both centroids
>         and got answers different to
> the
> > examples in the text. It took
>         me a while to discover my error
> - the
> > centroids are being
>         measured left and right from
> the spar location and not
> > just from
>         the left as on pg. D-1 - hence my drawing on Page-21 showing
> the
> >
>         graphical method of finding the centroids!
> >
> > Comments
>         welcome...
> >
> > Phil.
> >
>
>
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